Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

Thanks, Dena! Some reflections below.

 

1. On tab DEFINITIONS row 93 it says MIN_CREDITS yet on tab FILL THIS IN column X it says MAX_CREDITS.
1. What are you wanting?  Thank you for catching! We would like the minimum number of credits required to complete the degree/certificate.
2. Will this replace what is on the website now with an effective date?
1. Depending upon your response – will campuses need to work through their CAO/Provosts to remove programs no longer offered or will this clean-up process do that? This process, for the most part, will clean up those inconsistencies without additional paperwork. Our intent is to start largely fresh, adding information on past BOR actions where possible.
3. What is the timeline or process for maintaining this?  Absolutely agreed. The plan in the short term is to update this as CAO/Provosts submit changes through our academic approval process. In the medium term, the intent is for this dataset to undergird a web submission and review tool for academic proposals that will more automatically update (and provide new avenues for audit).
1. We could get it updated, but if it is not maintained, then it will be out-of-date soon.
2. When a CAO/Provost submits changes to BOR/OCHE will they automatically be updated or is that a separate process?
3. What is the process of auditing, maintenance & updating?

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> on behalf of Dena Wagner-Fossen <dfossen@GFCMSU.EDU>
Reply-To: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 2:27 PM
To: "MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU" <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

A couple of questions from GFC MSU:

 

1. On tab DEFINITIONS row 93 it says MIN_CREDITS yet on tab FILL THIS IN column X it says MAX_CREDITS.
1. What are you wanting? 
2. Will this replace what is on the website now with an effective date?
1. Depending upon your response – will campuses need to work through their CAO/Provosts to remove programs no longer offered or will this clean-up process do that?
3. What is the timeline or process for maintaining this? 
1. We could get it updated, but if it is not maintained, then it will be out-of-date soon.
2. When a CAO/Provost submits changes to BOR/OCHE will they automatically be updated or is that a separate process?
3. What is the process of auditing, maintenance & updating?

 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide feedback.  ~d

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 12:39 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

NOTICE: This email originated from outside of your organization. Do not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you were expecting this message and know the content is safe.

MACRAO colleagues:

 

OCHE is looking to revamp our degree inventory. Our current inventory (https://apps.mus.edu/Degrees/degree_default.asp) is badly out of date, has inaccurate information, and a data structure that is not useful for some of our key needs.

 

Campuses have been rightfully frustrated, as this list is not only a potential source of information for prospective students, but it is also the list the US Department of Education is likely to first look to when identifying approved programs for Title IV funding.

 

A subgroup of registrars and admission administrators have been helping me to build a template for a new inventory (see attached). Our vision is that campuses would fill in this inventory, OCHE would validate through BOR records, adding BOR item numbers where available, and then this would become the basis for an online academic program submission and approval web app to keep the inventory up-to-date as programs change in future.

 

However, I would really value your input before we start gathering this information. Could you please take a look at the attached template and let me know if you think anything is missing or ill-put? Is this a template your campus could fill out with the definitions and instructions provided? Is the information being requested useful to our audiences (prospective students; US DOE; others?)

 

If you have any ideas or comments please respond to me at jthiel@montana.edu no later than Friday, February 28^th.

 

Kind Regards,

 

 

Joseph Thiel

Director of Academic Policy and Research

Montana University System

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

A couple of questions from GFC MSU:

 

1.       On tab DEFINITIONS row 93 it says MIN_CREDITS yet on tab FILL THIS IN column X it says MAX_CREDITS.

a.       What are you wanting? 

2.       Will this replace what is on the website now with an effective date?

a.       Depending upon your response – will campuses need to work through their CAO/Provosts to remove programs no longer offered or will this clean-up process do that?

3.       What is the timeline or process for maintaining this? 

a.       We could get it updated, but if it is not maintained, then it will be out-of-date soon.

b.       When a CAO/Provost submits changes to BOR/OCHE will they automatically be updated or is that a separate process?

c.       What is the process of auditing, maintenance & updating?

 

Thank you for the opportunity to provide feedback.  ~d

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 12:39 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

NOTICE: This email originated from outside of your organization. Do not click links, open attachments, or respond unless you were expecting this message and know the content is safe.

MACRAO colleagues:

 

OCHE is looking to revamp our degree inventory. Our current inventory (https://apps.mus.edu/Degrees/degree_default.asp) is badly out of date, has inaccurate information, and a data structure that is not useful for some of our key needs.

 

Campuses have been rightfully frustrated, as this list is not only a potential source of information for prospective students, but it is also the list the US Department of Education is likely to first look to when identifying approved programs for Title IV funding.

 

A subgroup of registrars and admission administrators have been helping me to build a template for a new inventory (see attached). Our vision is that campuses would fill in this inventory, OCHE would validate through BOR records, adding BOR item numbers where available, and then this would become the basis for an online academic program submission and approval web app to keep the inventory up-to-date as programs change in future.

 

However, I would really value your input before we start gathering this information. Could you please take a look at the attached template and let me know if you think anything is missing or ill-put? Is this a template your campus could fill out with the definitions and instructions provided? Is the information being requested useful to our audiences (prospective students; US DOE; others?)

 

If you have any ideas or comments please respond to me at jthiel@montana.edu no later than Friday, February 28^th.

 

Kind Regards,

 

 

Joseph Thiel

Director of Academic Policy and Research

Montana University System

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: "Listener Fee" for non-matriculated students

We stopped doing this sometime before 2011 when I started here and while I have seen some “non-matriculated” forms floating around.  I am not sure how they were utilized.

 

T

 

Tony Campeau

Registrar

Montana State University

406.994.2604

 

RESPECT … INTEGRITY … STUDENT SUCCESS … EXCELLENCE

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Barnhart, Dawn
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 5:12 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: "Listener Fee" for non-matriculated students

 

Hi all,

There is a section in the BoR policy regarding Audit Fees and Listener Fees: https://mus.edu/borpol/bor900/940-18.pdf.

 

Does anyone in the system use the Listener Fee for Non-Matriculated students policy?  If so, could you either send me a link/info about it if you have that available or could I bend your ear over the phone about how it’s used on your campus?

 

Dawn Barnhart  |   she, her, hers

ASSISTANT REGISTRAR

STUDENT SERVICES & RESIDENCY

OFFICE OF THE REGISTRAR

 

Lommasson Center 201   |   Missoula, Montana

t: (406) 243-2939   |    w: http://umt.edu/registrar

U N I V E R S I T Y  O F  M O N T A N A

 

 

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"Listener Fee" for non-matriculated students

Hi all,

There is a section in the BoR policy regarding Audit Fees and Listener Fees: https://mus.edu/borpol/bor900/940-18.pdf.

 

Does anyone in the system use the Listener Fee for Non-Matriculated students policy?  If so, could you either send me a link/info about it if you have that available or could I bend your ear over the phone about how it’s used on your campus?

 

Dawn Barnhart  |   she, her, hers

ASSISTANT REGISTRAR

STUDENT SERVICES & RESIDENCY

OFFICE OF THE REGISTRAR

 

Lommasson Center 201   |   Missoula, Montana

t: (406) 243-2939   |    w: http://umt.edu/registrar

U N I V E R S I T Y  O F  M O N T A N A

 

Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

Hello! 

Carroll would love to be part of this conversation, as we are having many of the same discussions on our campus and in particular in our Curriculum Committee. In our catalog we currently use the following terms to describe what's loosely the same thing, which it sounds like the MUS policy calls an "option" within a major: concentration, emphasis, specialization, track, and there may be others I'm not thinking of at the moment.

We are also looking at introducing a new category of pre-professional "pathways" that students from any major could declare (e.g. pre-medicine, pre-physical therapy, etc.). We don't see these as minors since in some cases they are credit-heavy and aren't really focused around a particular discipline or interdisciplinary content area; rather, we see them as a "way through" a program of study that students are already pursuing but we'd like a better way to track from both a reporting and an advising perspective.

Then there's the whole debate Tony mentions of not declaring a major or minor in the "same discipline" and how to define that. For example, can you do a Biochemistry major with a Biology minor or Chemistry minor, or even a Biology or Chemistry second major? Can you be a Communications Studies major with a PR and Social Media emphasis and then also declare an Interpersonal Communications minor? Conversely, can you be a Communication Studies major with an Interpersonal Communications emphasis and then also declare a PR and Social Media minor? That kind of thing. And then as Tony mentioned, what is the appropriate amount of credits that can overlap or double-count? Right now we have no institution-wide policy (some departments have limits written in), and part of my hesitation with instituting one is that there is currently no way for our Colleague system to track a certain number limit on overlapping credits (it's either all or nothing), meaning it would somehow have to be monitored manually. I also fear that some of our departments would end up wanting to make a bunch of individual course substitutions to allow students to do what they are already doing now without any limits.

So yes, definitely relevant to us! I'm not sure I'll be able to make it to Billings in person this spring, but I'd love to join at least via web conference. :)

Hope everyone is doing well.

Best,

Cassie

--

Cassie E. Hall

Registrar

Carroll College

1601 N. Benton Ave.

Helena, MT 59625

406-447-4572 (direct) / 406-447-5435 (office)

chall@carroll.edu / registrar@carroll.edu

Confidentiality Notice: Information contained within and/or attached to this email message may contain confidential information from a student's education record. Such information is protected by the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) and is intended for the designated addressee(s) only. This information may not be released or re-released without the prior written consent of the involved student(s). If you have received this email or attachments in error, please inform the sender and delete the message.

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:46 PM Charity Walters <Charity.Walters@umwestern.edu> wrote:

Can of worms…I know J 

 

So when I was trying to explore the history of the option, vs minor, vs concentration on our campus the following was provided by our previous Provost as a note on the history of the policy.

 

"A number of years ago (maybe >20 years) the BOR thought there were too many categories of academic programs out there (concentrations, emphases, focuses, related areas, etc.) and decided to simplify things to the three (majors, minors, and options).  There has been a complete turnover of the BOR since that time."

 

Based on just our current  baseline conversations in this email chain it sounds like different campuses interpret minors etc. different ways even with the guidelines in the MUS 303.1 policy.  And assuming the dates are correct it looks like this policy was originally drafted in 1973 which leaves a lot of time for conversational reinterpretation of original intent.

 

For Western, we just want a clean guidelines regarding when and how to use a minor vs an option vs anything else OR how the policy should be interpreted when we are preparing new or updated programs.  This clarification is important because it makes a difference in the proposal process Level 1 vs Level 2 submission, which can translate to a lot of extra paperwork, red tape, and delays if you don't understand where your proposal lands from the start.

 

I'm happy to bring it up as a conversation at MACRAO, but as you mentioned the timeline of the project and our conversation may not align.  Maybe if nothing else we can get an idea of how each campus is interpreting and communicating on their individual campuses?  Maybe even the  privates and tribal colleges who are in attendance can share the terminology their finding work best with the student population and we can pull some ideas from these communities.

 

On a comical note, I was accused the other day of giving the "lawyer answer"…while initially a little insulted by that persons comments, after reading our email conversations I'm beginning to get the accusation J .  Maybe we all have a little bit of lawyerism in us.

 

Happy days and policy monitoring to all!

 

Charity

 

 

 

Charity Walters| Registrar and Director of Institutional Research | The University of Montana Western | 710 South Atlantic Street | Dillon, Montana 59725 |
Phone 406.683.7471

"Start by doing what is necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." St. Francis of Assisi

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Campeau, Tony
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 5:10 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

Hello,

There has been some discussion on our campus about this recently as well.  Especially our rule that you cannot receive a minor in the same discipline as your major (we don't define the level of overlap that is acceptable: see definition below).

 

Generally, at MSU, a minor is an area not related to your major while a concentration or option (the words are interchangeable on our campus) is a special area of focus within the discipline (again we don't do well defining a disciplines domain).  Additionally, 301.1 goes into some detail on how an option ought to be one of two or more areas of focus related to a particular major and share some common/foundational courses.

 

A concentration or option is not just linked but part of a specific major in banner.  Minors are more self-contained and can be linked to any major (other than that of the same discipline).

 

I feel like I am typing in circles so I will leave this here for now.  I am happy to visit about this as well if it would be helpful.

 

Charity,

If you would like you could propose this as a topic for MACRAO (although it doesn't really fit our deadlines well).  There are some tricks to how these are articulated in banner that is important for us as well.

Tony

 

 

Minors

A student must declare his or her intentions of seeking a minor(s), by submitting a completed Curriculum & Catalog Changes form prior to submitting a graduation application. Minor's must be linked to a baccalaureate degree. A student must be seeking or have already received an MSU baccalaureate degree to declare a minor(s). The minimum number of credits required for a minor is twenty-one, with nine of those being upper-division credits. A student may not receive a minor in the same discipline as their major(s).  

 

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:37 AM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

Hi Cheri,

 

Let me think on that one and shop it around to colleagues.

 

I generally agree that option vs. concentration vs. minor is confusing. I've just been leery of messing with those distinctions, given how deeply they are built into current catalogs, etc.

 

Joe

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> on behalf of Charity Walters <Charity.Walters@UMWESTERN.EDU>
Reply-To: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Date: Monday, February 24, 2020 at 1:27 PM
To: "MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU" <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

HI Joe;

 

I know I'm a broken record but will this change include an updated definition or terminology of an Option in policy 303.1?  There is a lot of confusion (at least on this campus) surrounding what is a minor "that supports or compliments a field" verses an option which seems to have the same philosophy but is  built into the major instead of being a complimentary minor and maybe allows a little bit more credits to be part of the full major than a typical major/minor combination would allow.   The faculty on this campus who have been that have been in the system (and at least some administration) for 15 or more years have the history to remember when and why options were established, but new faculty are struggling with when and where to use a minor vs an option and how to explain an option to students.  The other concern we've had very recently with students is they see the word "Option" meaning it is optional.  While this also speaks to  advising protocols it would help if the words were modernized a little bit.   I know the general feedback I've received when venturing forth into this conversation is that concentrations is another word for options.  Is it possible to consider an update to that terminology officially (or maybe based on your documentation that is what is planned)

 

Otherwise I think the spreadsheet is workable and makes sense for the project you outlined.

 

Charity

 

Charity Walters| Registrar and Director of Institutional Research | The University of Montana Western | 710 South Atlantic Street | Dillon, Montana 59725 |
Phone 406.683.7471

"Start by doing what is necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." St. Francis of Assisi

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 12:39 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

MACRAO colleagues:

 

OCHE is looking to revamp our degree inventory. Our current inventory (https://apps.mus.edu/Degrees/degree_default.asp) is badly out of date, has inaccurate information, and a data structure that is not useful for some of our key needs.

 

Campuses have been rightfully frustrated, as this list is not only a potential source of information for prospective students, but it is also the list the US Department of Education is likely to first look to when identifying approved programs for Title IV funding.

 

A subgroup of registrars and admission administrators have been helping me to build a template for a new inventory (see attached). Our vision is that campuses would fill in this inventory, OCHE would validate through BOR records, adding BOR item numbers where available, and then this would become the basis for an online academic program submission and approval web app to keep the inventory up-to-date as programs change in future.

 

However, I would really value your input before we start gathering this information. Could you please take a look at the attached template and let me know if you think anything is missing or ill-put? Is this a template your campus could fill out with the definitions and instructions provided? Is the information being requested useful to our audiences (prospective students; US DOE; others?)

 

If you have any ideas or comments please respond to me at jthiel@montana.edu no later than Friday, February 28^th.

 

Kind Regards,

 

 

Joseph Thiel

Director of Academic Policy and Research

Montana University System

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

Lawyerly registrars??

 

In any case, Charity, I think some clarification from the BOR and OCHE would be welcome and is achievable. Let's do discuss at MACRAO if there is space on the agenda. Our conversations can perhaps inform a visualization or additional language in the academic affairs handbook so we have some greater consistency (and so you all can avoid unnecessary paperwork and red tape).

 

Thanks again for the thoughtful comments and ideas.

 

Joe

 

 

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> on behalf of Charity Walters <Charity.Walters@UMWESTERN.EDU>
Reply-To: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:46 PM
To: "MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU" <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

Can of worms…I know J 

 

So when I was trying to explore the history of the option, vs minor, vs concentration on our campus the following was provided by our previous Provost as a note on the history of the policy.

 

"A number of years ago (maybe >20 years) the BOR thought there were too many categories of academic programs out there (concentrations, emphases, focuses, related areas, etc.) and decided to simplify things to the three (majors, minors, and options).  There has been a complete turnover of the BOR since that time."

 

Based on just our current  baseline conversations in this email chain it sounds like different campuses interpret minors etc. different ways even with the guidelines in the MUS 303.1 policy.  And assuming the dates are correct it looks like this policy was originally drafted in 1973 which leaves a lot of time for conversational reinterpretation of original intent.

 

For Western, we just want a clean guidelines regarding when and how to use a minor vs an option vs anything else OR how the policy should be interpreted when we are preparing new or updated programs.  This clarification is important because it makes a difference in the proposal process Level 1 vs Level 2 submission, which can translate to a lot of extra paperwork, red tape, and delays if you don't understand where your proposal lands from the start.

 

I'm happy to bring it up as a conversation at MACRAO, but as you mentioned the timeline of the project and our conversation may not align.  Maybe if nothing else we can get an idea of how each campus is interpreting and communicating on their individual campuses?  Maybe even the  privates and tribal colleges who are in attendance can share the terminology their finding work best with the student population and we can pull some ideas from these communities.

 

On a comical note, I was accused the other day of giving the "lawyer answer"…while initially a little insulted by that persons comments, after reading our email conversations I'm beginning to get the accusation J .  Maybe we all have a little bit of lawyerism in us.

 

Happy days and policy monitoring to all!

 

Charity

 

 

 

Charity Walters| Registrar and Director of Institutional Research | The University of Montana Western | 710 South Atlantic Street | Dillon, Montana 59725 |
Phone 406.683.7471

"Start by doing what is necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." St. Francis of Assisi

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Campeau, Tony
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 5:10 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

Hello,

There has been some discussion on our campus about this recently as well.  Especially our rule that you cannot receive a minor in the same discipline as your major (we don't define the level of overlap that is acceptable: see definition below).

 

Generally, at MSU, a minor is an area not related to your major while a concentration or option (the words are interchangeable on our campus) is a special area of focus within the discipline (again we don't do well defining a disciplines domain).  Additionally, 301.1 goes into some detail on how an option ought to be one of two or more areas of focus related to a particular major and share some common/foundational courses.

 

A concentration or option is not just linked but part of a specific major in banner.  Minors are more self-contained and can be linked to any major (other than that of the same discipline).

 

I feel like I am typing in circles so I will leave this here for now.  I am happy to visit about this as well if it would be helpful.

 

Charity,

If you would like you could propose this as a topic for MACRAO (although it doesn't really fit our deadlines well).  There are some tricks to how these are articulated in banner that is important for us as well.

Tony

 

 

Minors

A student must declare his or her intentions of seeking a minor(s), by submitting a completed Curriculum & Catalog Changes form prior to submitting a graduation application. Minor's must be linked to a baccalaureate degree. A student must be seeking or have already received an MSU baccalaureate degree to declare a minor(s). The minimum number of credits required for a minor is twenty-one, with nine of those being upper-division credits. A student may not receive a minor in the same discipline as their major(s).  

 

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:37 AM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

Hi Cheri,

 

Let me think on that one and shop it around to colleagues.

 

I generally agree that option vs. concentration vs. minor is confusing. I've just been leery of messing with those distinctions, given how deeply they are built into current catalogs, etc.

 

Joe

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> on behalf of Charity Walters <Charity.Walters@UMWESTERN.EDU>
Reply-To: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Date: Monday, February 24, 2020 at 1:27 PM
To: "MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU" <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

HI Joe;

 

I know I'm a broken record but will this change include an updated definition or terminology of an Option in policy 303.1?  There is a lot of confusion (at least on this campus) surrounding what is a minor "that supports or compliments a field" verses an option which seems to have the same philosophy but is  built into the major instead of being a complimentary minor and maybe allows a little bit more credits to be part of the full major than a typical major/minor combination would allow.   The faculty on this campus who have been that have been in the system (and at least some administration) for 15 or more years have the history to remember when and why options were established, but new faculty are struggling with when and where to use a minor vs an option and how to explain an option to students.  The other concern we've had very recently with students is they see the word "Option" meaning it is optional.  While this also speaks to  advising protocols it would help if the words were modernized a little bit.   I know the general feedback I've received when venturing forth into this conversation is that concentrations is another word for options.  Is it possible to consider an update to that terminology officially (or maybe based on your documentation that is what is planned)

 

Otherwise I think the spreadsheet is workable and makes sense for the project you outlined.

 

Charity

 

Charity Walters| Registrar and Director of Institutional Research | The University of Montana Western | 710 South Atlantic Street | Dillon, Montana 59725 |
Phone 406.683.7471

"Start by doing what is necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." St. Francis of Assisi

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 12:39 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

MACRAO colleagues:

 

OCHE is looking to revamp our degree inventory. Our current inventory (https://apps.mus.edu/Degrees/degree_default.asp) is badly out of date, has inaccurate information, and a data structure that is not useful for some of our key needs.

 

Campuses have been rightfully frustrated, as this list is not only a potential source of information for prospective students, but it is also the list the US Department of Education is likely to first look to when identifying approved programs for Title IV funding.

 

A subgroup of registrars and admission administrators have been helping me to build a template for a new inventory (see attached). Our vision is that campuses would fill in this inventory, OCHE would validate through BOR records, adding BOR item numbers where available, and then this would become the basis for an online academic program submission and approval web app to keep the inventory up-to-date as programs change in future.

 

However, I would really value your input before we start gathering this information. Could you please take a look at the attached template and let me know if you think anything is missing or ill-put? Is this a template your campus could fill out with the definitions and instructions provided? Is the information being requested useful to our audiences (prospective students; US DOE; others?)

 

If you have any ideas or comments please respond to me at jthiel@montana.edu no later than Friday, February 28^th.

 

Kind Regards,

 

 

Joseph Thiel

Director of Academic Policy and Research

Montana University System

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

Can of worms…I know J 

 

So when I was trying to explore the history of the option, vs minor, vs concentration on our campus the following was provided by our previous Provost as a note on the history of the policy.

 

"A number of years ago (maybe >20 years) the BOR thought there were too many categories of academic programs out there (concentrations, emphases, focuses, related areas, etc.) and decided to simplify things to the three (majors, minors, and options).  There has been a complete turnover of the BOR since that time."

 

Based on just our current  baseline conversations in this email chain it sounds like different campuses interpret minors etc. different ways even with the guidelines in the MUS 303.1 policy.  And assuming the dates are correct it looks like this policy was originally drafted in 1973 which leaves a lot of time for conversational reinterpretation of original intent.

 

For Western, we just want a clean guidelines regarding when and how to use a minor vs an option vs anything else OR how the policy should be interpreted when we are preparing new or updated programs.  This clarification is important because it makes a difference in the proposal process Level 1 vs Level 2 submission, which can translate to a lot of extra paperwork, red tape, and delays if you don't understand where your proposal lands from the start.

 

I'm happy to bring it up as a conversation at MACRAO, but as you mentioned the timeline of the project and our conversation may not align.  Maybe if nothing else we can get an idea of how each campus is interpreting and communicating on their individual campuses?  Maybe even the  privates and tribal colleges who are in attendance can share the terminology their finding work best with the student population and we can pull some ideas from these communities.

 

On a comical note, I was accused the other day of giving the "lawyer answer"…while initially a little insulted by that persons comments, after reading our email conversations I'm beginning to get the accusation J .  Maybe we all have a little bit of lawyerism in us.

 

Happy days and policy monitoring to all!

 

Charity

 

 

 

Charity Walters| Registrar and Director of Institutional Research | The University of Montana Western | 710 South Atlantic Street | Dillon, Montana 59725 |
Phone 406.683.7471

"Start by doing what is necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." St. Francis of Assisi

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Campeau, Tony
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 5:10 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

Hello,

There has been some discussion on our campus about this recently as well.  Especially our rule that you cannot receive a minor in the same discipline as your major (we don't define the level of overlap that is acceptable: see definition below).

 

Generally, at MSU, a minor is an area not related to your major while a concentration or option (the words are interchangeable on our campus) is a special area of focus within the discipline (again we don't do well defining a disciplines domain).  Additionally, 301.1 goes into some detail on how an option ought to be one of two or more areas of focus related to a particular major and share some common/foundational courses.

 

A concentration or option is not just linked but part of a specific major in banner.  Minors are more self-contained and can be linked to any major (other than that of the same discipline).

 

I feel like I am typing in circles so I will leave this here for now.  I am happy to visit about this as well if it would be helpful.

 

Charity,

If you would like you could propose this as a topic for MACRAO (although it doesn't really fit our deadlines well).  There are some tricks to how these are articulated in banner that is important for us as well.

Tony

 

 

Minors

A student must declare his or her intentions of seeking a minor(s), by submitting a completed Curriculum & Catalog Changes form prior to submitting a graduation application. Minor's must be linked to a baccalaureate degree. A student must be seeking or have already received an MSU baccalaureate degree to declare a minor(s). The minimum number of credits required for a minor is twenty-one, with nine of those being upper-division credits. A student may not receive a minor in the same discipline as their major(s).  

 

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:37 AM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

Hi Cheri,

 

Let me think on that one and shop it around to colleagues.

 

I generally agree that option vs. concentration vs. minor is confusing. I've just been leery of messing with those distinctions, given how deeply they are built into current catalogs, etc.

 

Joe

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> on behalf of Charity Walters <Charity.Walters@UMWESTERN.EDU>
Reply-To: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Date: Monday, February 24, 2020 at 1:27 PM
To: "MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU" <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

HI Joe;

 

I know I'm a broken record but will this change include an updated definition or terminology of an Option in policy 303.1?  There is a lot of confusion (at least on this campus) surrounding what is a minor "that supports or compliments a field" verses an option which seems to have the same philosophy but is  built into the major instead of being a complimentary minor and maybe allows a little bit more credits to be part of the full major than a typical major/minor combination would allow.   The faculty on this campus who have been that have been in the system (and at least some administration) for 15 or more years have the history to remember when and why options were established, but new faculty are struggling with when and where to use a minor vs an option and how to explain an option to students.  The other concern we've had very recently with students is they see the word "Option" meaning it is optional.  While this also speaks to  advising protocols it would help if the words were modernized a little bit.   I know the general feedback I've received when venturing forth into this conversation is that concentrations is another word for options.  Is it possible to consider an update to that terminology officially (or maybe based on your documentation that is what is planned)

 

Otherwise I think the spreadsheet is workable and makes sense for the project you outlined.

 

Charity

 

Charity Walters| Registrar and Director of Institutional Research | The University of Montana Western | 710 South Atlantic Street | Dillon, Montana 59725 |
Phone 406.683.7471

"Start by doing what is necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible." St. Francis of Assisi

 

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> On Behalf Of Thiel, Joe
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 12:39 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: MUS Program Inventory Template FOR REVIEW

 

MACRAO colleagues:

 

OCHE is looking to revamp our degree inventory. Our current inventory (https://apps.mus.edu/Degrees/degree_default.asp) is badly out of date, has inaccurate information, and a data structure that is not useful for some of our key needs.

 

Campuses have been rightfully frustrated, as this list is not only a potential source of information for prospective students, but it is also the list the US Department of Education is likely to first look to when identifying approved programs for Title IV funding.

 

A subgroup of registrars and admission administrators have been helping me to build a template for a new inventory (see attached). Our vision is that campuses would fill in this inventory, OCHE would validate through BOR records, adding BOR item numbers where available, and then this would become the basis for an online academic program submission and approval web app to keep the inventory up-to-date as programs change in future.

 

However, I would really value your input before we start gathering this information. Could you please take a look at the attached template and let me know if you think anything is missing or ill-put? Is this a template your campus could fill out with the definitions and instructions provided? Is the information being requested useful to our audiences (prospective students; US DOE; others?)

 

If you have any ideas or comments please respond to me at jthiel@montana.edu no later than Friday, February 28^th.

 

Kind Regards,

 

 

Joseph Thiel

Director of Academic Policy and Research

Montana University System

 

 

 

 

 

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