MACRAO: Re: New and Old SAT scores used as pre-requisites

Hi Jeff,

Here are the OCHE memos regarding SAT and ACT recommendations. Just in case you needed it to be even more confusing, the ACT memo incorrectly has a release date of 2015 and plus also includes a concordance table that is for an outdated version of the test. Elizabeth Ternes at OCHE has confirmed for us that whatever isn’t incorrect in that memo is correct. Hope you weren’t wanting crystal clear recommendations.

The mixed combinations you describe are less of an issue for us at a 2-year school – we just need to know cut scores for placing students in developmental math/writing (which Banner makes pretty straightforward), not assess for admission decisions whether they are math/writing proficient. Good luck?

-- Joe

From: MACRAO Listserv [mailto:MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Langemeier
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 10:22 AM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: New and Old SAT scores used as pre-requisites

Joe brings up something that makes me just a touch itchy about all of this. I don't have OCHE's recommendations, and it would be super helpful if someone that does could link to them or attach them in. And with how those subscores work, I would be interested in what combinations could technically get students where;

I can totally forsee a student acing the Algebra section, but bombing "Advanced Math", are those students calc ready, pre-calc ready, etc;
or how about the unfortunate soul that sends us really mixed signals by acing the "Advanced Math" section and somehow bombing Algebra (I can totally relate to this) where do they fit?
Can we still go off of just the total Math section score? This route will be the most programmatic way to handle things, so I hope this works.

As Becky said, we've got a lot of moving parts to adjust on our end; so this conversation may have created some local meetings for us here in Bozeman...

Thanks,

Jeff

Jeffrey Langemeier | Data Systems Director

Direct: 406.994.3909 | Main 406.994.6650 | Fax: 406.994.1972
Montana State University | 101 Montana Hall | PO Box 172660

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> on behalf of Joe Simonsen <joe.simonsen@GFCMSU.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 9:53:57 AM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: New and Old SAT scores used as pre-requisites

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Feedback

This is like Elijah’s jar – there is no last worm in this can.

I think Dena’s “workaround” here will be to buy everyone a six-pack and turn us loose on the 100+ classes that need new test score pre-reqs added. Now that the cooler weather is upon us, I recommend Powder Hound.

My heightened sense of panic regarding test scores is probably leading me to misinterpret Jeff’s response, but I’d be very careful about assuming an easy one-to-one correspondence between old tests and new. ACT writing changed in ways that you’ve probably already accounted for but that do need addressing for the campuses who are still trying to catch up on that daisy chain of ACT switcheroos. And while the SAT “sections” smell like the old ones, the latest (?) recommendations from OCHE regarding math and writing proficiency are based on the new “test” portions of the SAT – the ones that score from 10-40 – rather than the previous recommendations based on the “sections” that score from 200-800. So if you’re a school that follows OCHE’s recommendations, that’s a new thing to account for.

Even in cases where it appears that the new test is the same as the old, the reluctance of ACT and College Board to release new cut score recommendations makes me leery of assuming that anything with the same name really is the same test as before, especially for anything that occupies a new position on the electronic data layout. For the organizational pleasure of any fellow Type A folks, I’ve attached my breakdown of every possible ACT and SAT test score related to math and English/writing over the last two years of changes. Not all of these have cut scores here, obviously, but they do have unique Banner codes for loading.

Placement tests will drive me to lunacy yet. Only gifts of beer could save me, right Dena? Dena? …

Joe Simonsen

Director of Admissions
Great Falls College MSU
2100 16^th Avenue South
Great Falls, MT 59405
Phone: 406.771.4309 or 800.446.2698 ext 4309
Fax: 406.771.2267
Apply Now!

From: MACRAO Listserv [mailto:MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Langemeier
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 8:17 AM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: Re: New and Old SAT scores used as pre-requisites

Hi Folks,

From what I can tell, we (MSU system schools) have new codes built in for these new scores (S12 instead of S02), but I'm not seeing that we've actively admitted anybody with these new scores yet; since they went into effect in March of 2016, most admitted students for Fall 2016 already had scores, so they hadn't taken any new ones. As we look towards admissions for Fall 2017, I would guess that we'll have more to go off of, and we will probably need to figure out if there's a difference in what the numbers evaluate to. If we are starting to bring in students under the new scores, we will add the S12 code and appropriate score levels to our math classes that have a test score option (M 105Q, M 121Q, M 151Q, M 165Q, M 171Q) before the first orientation session in June.

We have a flowchart that students use, along with some reporting out of DegreeWorks, and some incoming student information that will need to be updated if these math section scores change from the old to the new (but I haven't found any information leading me to believe that they've substantially changed the scores themselves).

I hope this helps a bit,

Jeff

Jeffrey Langemeier | Data Systems Director

Direct: 406.994.3909 | Main 406.994.6650 | Fax: 406.994.1972
Montana State University | 101 Montana Hall | PO Box 172660

From: MACRAO Listserv <MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU> on behalf of Charity Walters <Charity.Walters@UMWESTERN.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 3:21:23 PM
To: MACRAO@LISTSERV.GFCMSU.EDU
Subject: New and Old SAT scores used as pre-requisites

Hi MACRAO

I’m reaching out to those who use Banner and list ACT or SAT scores as prereqs for courses (i.e. M 100 level classes might require that a student has a certain ACT/SAT score to participate).

How are you creating both the old and new SAT test scores in Banner under prereq restrictions (see screen shot below from SSAPREQ)? Are you using a new Test Code for the update SAT test or is there another work around that I’m not aware of?

Thanks for your insight.